Almost all surveys from the podcast sector in 2024 share a common conclusion: chat podcasts reign supreme. As video continues to gain traction (with 33 percent of US podcast listeners preferring this format), ad spending is projected to exceed $4 billion globally. Meanwhile, listenership grows steadily at 8 percent annually, all while it is the chat format—with its mix of fierce debate, enlightening dialogue, and at times, lighthearted banter—that consistently captures audiences’ attention.
The landscape is vast and unpredictable. There are staple shows that have become cultural touchstones: The Joe Rogan Experience, Armchair Expert, and The Read. Fresh entries like I’ve Had It and ShxtsnGigs (more on that one later) are also attracting substantial audiences. Other chat shows, such as Club Shay Shay, seem to invite controversy with each episode. “Katt Williams, please close the portal,” @nuffsaidny recently quipped on X, referencing the comedian’s guest appearance from January where he ominously declared for 2024: “All lies will be exposed.”
“That connection—that relationship—is crucial,” states Eric Eddings, VP of audio at Kevin Hart’s media organization, Hartbeat, emphasizing the unique bond that chat podcasts foster with their listeners.
In 2014, alongside Brittany Luse, Eddings launched For Colored Nerds, a weekly discussion on pop culture, race, and current affairs (full disclosure: I featured in an episode back in 2017). After Nerds, Eddings joined Gimlet Media, where he co-hosted The Nod (again with Luse) and worked on productions for Undone and Habitat before transitioning to SiriusXM. Presently, Eddings leads podcast development for Hartbeat. What was applicable in the early days of the medium, he shares, remains relevant today. During a recent video call, we explored the current state of the industry and its sometimes intricate transformations.
JASON PARHAM: What has led to the rise in popularity of chat-casts?
ERIC EDDINGS: There are several factors at play. To put it plainly, many companies are seeking ways to reduce their investment in traditional programming. Producing narrative podcasts can be quite costly, requiring a significant initial investment, followed by efforts to ensure their success if they connect with listeners. Numerous companies have struggled to bring such projects into the market, especially given the challenges faced by the entertainment media sector.
Is it primarily a financial concern?
Podcasts centered on chat are generally easier to test, launch, and produce on a weekly basis. This shift has become more pronounced. While these factors highlight broader trends, they also risk oversimplifying the complexity of the discussion.
How so?
Even though podcasting has been around for some time, more and more groups of individuals have discovered podcasts in fresh and unique ways. People have become more comfortable with the medium. Comedians and influencers have both embraced it. Early in the pandemic, there was a noticeable trend where people thought, “We need to start a podcast.” However, I believe that now individuals are generating ideas or seeking collaborators, seeing podcasting as a platform to explore their thoughts. It’s incredibly adaptable. Collaboration fosters innovation. This kind of experimentation thrives in a conversational setting because the dialogue itself is what matters.
But does the abundance of chat-based podcasts indicate a lack of innovation?
I would slightly disagree with that notion.
Please.
To go back a bit, this has long been the story of podcasting. Initially, podcasts were predominantly a chat format, with many dedicated to sharing their stories or opinions. However, with Serial in 2014, the narrative podcast emerged as a significant force, even a kind of prestige format that garnered much enthusiasm. This led to an influx of creators eager to enter the realm. Subsequently, we witnessed the emergence of fiction podcasts in the market. During the early days of the pandemic, a noticeable increase in various celebrity interview shows occurred. Presently, we see chat continuing to serve as the foundation for this model.
That makes sense.
One Song is a chat music podcast developed at Hartbeat, hosted by Diallo Riddle, a comedian and writer, alongside Luxury, a producer, DJ, and musicologist. Their premise revolves around two individuals discussing music while delving into its intricate details. They play stems and engage in discussions about their reactions, the other music it evokes for them, and how they connect those musical threads. This approach adds a layer of innovation, transforming a show that might feel more narrative, like Song Exploder, into something infused with more fun and energy. No disrespect to Song Exploder; it’s a fantastic show. Beyond the Hartbeat ecosystem, there are other examples, such as Beautiful Anonymous with Chris Gethard. At its core, it’s a chat podcast where he engages with callers—sometimes assisting them in navigating their issues, while other times just chatting about whatever the caller wishes to discuss that day. The essence here is in conversation and connection.
Kind of like an old-school call-in show.
Right. You know, we’ve seen a lot of shows with two people trying to say a spicy thing and see if the clip goes viral. And that has been happening a lot more as people come into the space. But the good stuff is always going to float to the top regardless of how many other people are doing the same thing. You still see success from people who start a podcast on their own that doesn’t feel like it was conceived in a corporate boardroom. A show like ShxtsnGigs is a good example. It’s been a tough time for them recently but I think they’re understanding a bit more about how to move in the space and how to be responsive to their audience.
They flew too close to the sun. [The hosts of ShxtsnGigs, James Duncan and Fuhad Dawodu, received a wave of criticism for laughing off an offensive comment made about Black women during a recent interview.]
We could all learn a little bit from Icarus and that myth. But I think to that point, though, the community, the word of mouth, the conversation around that shows—that’s what gave it its power. It helped them grow really fast. That relationship is paramount. And when you are not navigating that relationship with your audience as closely as you should, they will tell you. It will come back.
Celebrities have completely taken over the medium. Club Shay Shay became a significant topic of discussion throughout the year. However, many of the podcasts focused on celebrities still come off as vanity projects.
Numerous celebrities are launching their own podcasts, and perhaps some shouldn’t be. In fact, there may be quite a few who fall into that category. Yet, when it comes to shows that attract and retain an audience, I believe that success usually stems from strong creative production. Sometimes, a celebrity may play a role in that success. Nonetheless, it’s evident that celebrity culture continues to influence everything.
Indeed. American culture revolves around celebrity culture.
Therefore, it’s not unreasonable for that to take center stage. This phenomenon fuels considerable investment. However, amid this trend, a notable variety still prevails.
I want to revisit something you mentioned earlier. A decade ago, in 2014, Serial‘s debut seemed to mark a transformation in the industry towards narrative content. However, that transformation did not materialize. What went wrong?
Some companies genuinely attempted to pioneer in this market. They thought, let’s provide as much narrative storytelling as we can. This could lead to a situation where content is released simply because it fits the narrative model, rather than truly considering the voices that audiences want to hear. What are the stories they are interested in? What narratives inspire emotional investment or evoke a sense of urgency? Narrative shows that focused on these elements were successful. Regardless of your opinion about Serial, there is a crucial underlying question about whether justice was served, and addressing that question seemed significant.
However, not everyone succeeded in this approach.
Some individuals may have overlooked the bigger picture, thinking, “This approach is successful. Let me replicate it as much as I can.” Additionally, the often short format posed challenges. Narrative podcasts generally consist of eight to ten episodes, sometimes twelve. Many listeners—especially those discovering that podcasting works for them—desired to form a deeper connection. They want to engage actively with the content. When a story concludes, they have to begin searching for something new. There are listeners who prefer shows that allow for a more profound engagement and fit seamlessly into their routines. For instance, I know I can catch my episode of Higher Learning twice weekly, just like Brittany [Luce] on It’s Been a Minute. I can tune in on my way to work or while running errands. That reliable engagement—the relationship—means everything.
I never thought about it that way. There are certain shows we view as must-watch television, so it follows that podcasts could thrive under the same premise.
When it comes to narrative podcasts, listeners find themselves repeatedly searching for quality content, trying to catch up, and staying involved in the conversation—that can be quite tough.
However, I believe there are avenues for the medium to adapt and grow in response to this challenge. It is clear why, in many aspects, narrative podcasts didn’t gain the traction we anticipated. Furthermore, the strikes in the entertainment industry over the past few years have led companies to become more selective about the stories they choose to tell and the investments they pursue. This has created obstacles—many great stories have either been left untold or may not get the opportunity to be shared as a result.
This somewhat surprising yet predictable transformation has occurred where an audio format has become visual. Nowadays, it seems that to run a successful podcast, having a presence on YouTube is essential. Is that accurate?
It is increasingly becoming the norm for clips, reels, and platforms like TikTok to be at the core of how we connect. It’s not surprising that these tools are now being utilized to discuss podcasting. For example, Spotify is making significant investments in this area, and Sirius is also incorporating more video features into their app. There’s a clear recognition that audiences desire this option. My hope is that it doesn’t create hurdles for those who wish to start a podcast and have meaningful discussions.
How can the industry evolve more effectively?
The podcasting industry must embrace the challenge of investing in innovation. It’s crucial to support creators who are eager to innovate, mix things up, and venture into new territories. Innovation doesn’t always have to involve AI.
Meanwhile, the financial landscape of the industry is still finding its footing. We’ve observed various investment trends, including a surge in celebrity-led shows. While the era of massive mega deals has waned, a variety of other initiatives remain. There will always be an abundance of programming available. Thus, the challenge is for the industry to develop strategies that can effectively highlight the widest array of content, as this directly impacts how these shows generate revenue.
It’s about figuring out how to ensure new voices are heard and elevated so we can gain exposure to them. This involves discovery, monetization, and distribution. A bit more effort is needed to understand how these ecosystems interact.
What will be the influence of AI on the industry’s future—or is it merely a gimmick?
From my perspective, AI has not yet dominated or become a fundamental aspect of the content developed here at Hartbeat. To clarify, AI transcription has revolutionized the process, significantly simplifying editing and supervision of our content. Across the industry, opinions remain divided on how some of the more significant advancements will integrate. In a field fundamentally centered on human connection and dialogue, I believe it will remain challenging to genuinely compete with these elements.
